Taking this blog in a slightly different direction, I'll write a bit about my thoughts on DotA AI and the retirement of BuffMePlz.
I recently received an email from BMP informing me of his decision, as well as his offer of general guidance to lead my own AI project. My first reaction was "Why didn't I get an email like this sooner?"
I believe that if an AI project had been worked together by a team of people, then it wouldn't have come down to this. It's really too much to take on by one person.
The idea of posting my Pre-Alpha builds of RGB's AI for the newest version at the time was to spark some interest in development in an otherwise dead scene. I knew BMP wasn't interested in wasting his time with people that thought they "could help" but couldn't do anything other than offer another opinion. This was a way of proving that there were certainly people interested in helping, myself and Cipd included
That was almost a year ago when my interest for developing AI was at it's peak, and when I received no response regarding those maps, I moved on to the next idea. This was to create an Open AI for DotA that could be ported to the latest version almost instantly, and Open in the sense that it would be very easy for others to contribute (especially open source).
Even though I completed the code-base for this project, it still needed some real AI to go along with it. This was back in January, and once again with no response or input from the ones I contacted, and the continuation of BMPs' ports of RGBs' maps, I decided that it was a wasted effort.
What I'm getting at here is that it's basically too little too late. I believe DotA for Warcraft 3 is near it's death. With Heroes of Newerth released just days ago, Starcraft 2 coming out this year, and the possibility of IceFrog moving on to Valve, by the time I created a decent AI, DotA would be on a different platform.
I don't see myself working on an AI for DotA now or in the future, and the only way I could see this changing is if some very ambitious developers came forward and teamed up as it should be done.
If you have a comment or question you can leave it in this post and I will reply there as well.
A little side note: I always thought it would be a fun game mode to combine 6v6 DotA with DotA AI. You could even play 12v12 in this scenario! (just for fun of course)
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51 comments:
Dear GoD-Tony,
I see what you are saying.
How much work do you think it would it take to update BMP's last AI map to the latest DotA map? Say Dota 6.67c. I mean in hours of work for a beginner (beginner in JASS but experienced in programming), to hours of work for an experienced JASS coder.
I am an ICT man myself but just have no real clue to how much work it takes, because of all the obfuscated code how much a mess is it.
If for example I were to jump into all this (with a team at best), I'd like to see it really advance beyond where it has been. With full respect to all the hard and loving creative work that has gone into this already.
I'd like to talk about this with you and at best BuffMePlz as well. Even if it wasn't for me, I think it's good to know how much effort DotA ai making takes and how it works exactly (a few obfuscated code towards normal code examples, would do that nicely).
Greetings,
ST
"How much work do you think it would it take to update BMP's last AI map to the latest DotA map?"
I would say that it's pretty close to impossible without help from BMP (which he might you at this point). Mainly because his maps include RGB's obfuscated code, and then it's been re-obfuscated again with BMP's changes. That's why for my pre-alpha maps I just went directly to RGB's latest version and worked with that. In terms of hours for a beginner, you are talking weeks.
The best way to see what kind of work goes into the AI, you should take RGB's v6.48 AI and compare the code to the original v6.48.
You do have a valid point. (Although I don't agree with the HoN part.) But I still believe DotA will be on WC3 platform for at least one more year or so. Problem about SC2 is:
- People need to spend money to buy it
- Needs time to tinker about the new map editor
- Models? Imagine if we import all the models from DotA to SC2, the loading time for the game will just be a disaster. And learning how to compress all that data for smoother loading time will take some time as well.
- Coding? I don't think its as easy as copy+paste from WC3 to SC2.
I appreciate your vision, and understand your position that there should be a team of AI makers instead of only one. It's what I have in mind as well.
I do wish the right people will come to take over this project, so you may rekindle your interest in this again. Maybe you could talk to IceFrog to helped in the advertisement? Or maybe you could just voice out your opinion to IceFrog?
As much as I don't want the AI project to die off, I also don't want another unwilling party to do this project. It will be history repeating itself again. Nevertheless, I do hope I can hear good news from you...
What does StarCraft 2 have with DotA? It's another game, another engine, so I don't see why does that affect your decision, unless you're stopping with wc3 modding to play s2. Thinking that a game would die, just like that, is wrong. Startcraft is more a rts than wc, so the gameplays differ.
As for HoN, you're forgetting one important thing. If there was no DotA, there wouldn't be HoN. Also, as far as I know, it doesn't have an AI.
It's ok if you don't want to make DotA AI, that's completely your choice, but the reasons you've mentioned are just not enough for me. Why did we needed to wait a day, to see your rejection?! I was expecting to see you accepting this, and revealing some of your plans for further the road. Definitely not this...
I'm sorry if my post was irritating, but it's just the way I feel.
@Anonymous
Don't you see? The game engine for wc3 is 7 years old, it's OLD. The reason that we'll probably see some AoS map in Sc2 is because it's above all a Blizzard game with endless possibilities and the editor isn't too unsimilar compared to the Wc3 editor (yes i've beta so I know). No doubt it's way more complicated but it's GUI is pretty similar and I don't think that it would take too much time to get used to it.
Here is my opinion about the AI and s.o.:
I`m a programmer and i`ve started playing DotA recently. I was interested about the AI and how can i enhance the AI`s behavior. I decompiled latest BMP`s AI map and started poking around. I just wanted to make a basic AI for a hero like Kaldr The Ancient Apparition. I wanted to build an item set and make him spam some of his skills on the lane and helping in ganks.
For a whole afternoon i deobfuscated and checked all the item`s builds and changed all the names of the items. I understood the whole process of buying/selling but many things are still unclear for me like skills build trees, AI attack/defend decisions making etc etc... I have some assumptions but it`s not enough for now to poke in the code and make new funcs.
I have experience with many languages... JASS is no problem for me... picked it up from the first moment... but this obfuscation is getting on my nerves. I just don`t see how obfu will stop some hacker to do his sh1t on the map/AI when he is determined to do it... past experiences are showing that. I myself learned assembler and took many months of lessons in reverse engineering just to defeat a software chain protections. And i did it... and nothing stopped me.
The obfu just gives the developers nightmares. Not many people will be determined to deobfuscate for weeks just to understand something. As a working person i don`t have that much time to loose it on changing names of variables and functions for all day long instead of working on something useful. I hope BMP will post some general guide which he proposed to Tony or better he will post his version of the AI script with his code unobfuscated and then i`m sure some people will find the guts to pick up the code and make the new releases possible. I know he spent endless hours of reading and understanding the code but it will be his and others`s before him legacy which will be lost.
And if not... then the project will prolly die... and all those endless hour will be just wasted.
@Uncle_Zhuge:
"I still believe DotA will be on WC3 platform for at least one more year or so."
Although I think saying it will last another year is a little generous, lets use that as an example. How long will it take to create a new AI that can bring the same level of competitiveness as RGB's? I see people say that even his AI is too easy. This means that if the AI created does not reach the same level as RGB's then it won't be enjoyable, and it could take upwards of 6-8 months to get it there.
My thought is that it would be extremely disappointing to come as far as 50% of the work only to find out DotA is dead anyway.
"Or maybe you could just voice out your opinion to IceFrog?"
With the AI that I had planned to create, IceFrog's help isn't really needed. Even if he completely handed over an open map, that would only save maybe 1 day of development time. The real time consuming aspect is dealing with all of the strategies, heroes and items. You pretty much have to write individual AI for every hero's skill in the game, as well as every item.
@Anonymous:
"What does StarCraft 2 have with DotA?"
My point was that most people migrate to the latest Blizzard RTS game because it's up to date and has newer features. You don't see players hanging around in Starcraft 1 for their tower defense maps, because in Wc3 they are even better and have more depth and features. The same thing applies to an AoS map such as DotA.
"If there was no DotA, there wouldn't be HoN."
And if there was no Wc1 or Wc2, there would be no 3, so what is your point? You are correct in that HoN doesn't have AI, but that doesn't mean it has stopped players from leaving DotA for HoN.
"Why did we needed to wait a day, to see your rejection?"
Because I was considering it.
@sadjokerus:
In my opinion it's not even worth it to deal with that code. Even if you learn about much of the script, you will constantly run into brick walls. If I ever got into making an AI, it would be from scratch and done in a much more "human readable" form.
Starcraft 2 will not take the place of DotA, because they are completely different games. HoN will never have IceFrog's sence of balance and development. And as IceFrog said, here: http://www.playdota.com/forums/blogs/icefrog/73/icefrog-com-dota-website-news/ and here: http://www.playdota.com/forums/blogs/icefrog/251/q-session-3/, he will continue developing Dota on Warcraft 3 for several years.
I think you should give Dota a chance and continue BMP's work :)
HeHe. I suggested this quite some while back but I didn't know if you seriously wanted to do this at some point of time. Support in whatever decision you take. :)
It's good that you are trying to target the AI level to be on par with RGB's AI level, which is what I hoped the AI project will ultimately accomplished. But as of what we have now, I believed that target is just too far-reached. It should be a bonus, a long-term goal for now, as I believed what the community wants now is only an AI map to test their builds. Difficulty as of now can be increased by the -hehg mode.
About strategies, heroes and items, I believed the community can helped the AI maker in this. We do have plenty of ideas, but we do not have the capability to implement it and they seem to fall on deaf ears in the past anyway. Should the community provide you the information about all these requirements, will it take you significantly lesser time to do the AI?
And about DotA being dead, no one can say for certain. I doubt it will be, as IceFrog seems contented to continue developing DotA for at least some time. Even if DotA did moved to another platform, we have at least laid the groundwork here. Its either we wait (For God knows how long) for DotA to move to another platform, or start our work now and when DotA has shifted to another platform, we can still shift what we have done here accordingly.
And for the record, if DotA can't transit to SC2, I doubt HoN can...
But nevertheless, whatever your decision is, I will respect it. No one should be obliged to the community against their will. I doubt we want to see more unhappy AI makers.
God-Tony. Is DotA coming to an end? Hope not
I think people love to play with AI to while away some time. But if you really want to play competitive DotA you play with human players may it be on LAN or online but I guarantee you most players play on LAN because it's more fun and you don't have to deal with sometimes sloppy internet connections. And this is the big edge of DotA on other tower defense games out there like HoN it's being LAN based gives opportunity to those without or with limited internet connection to enjoy the game. And real players don't mind if WC3 engine is old or if the graphics is not as cool as that of HoN as long as they enjoy playing with their friends all is good. KEEP THE LOVE ALIVE FOR DotA.
I respect your rejection Tony. BMP should have considered teaming up with other developers for the project. I don't have any grudge against BMP, he has done great work for the past years, but leaving the war and passing the torch to someone by surprise, like throwing a spoiled candy is improper.
I do agree DotA on WC3 is already dying. Without decent AI for any upcoming maps, DotA is already on its doom.
I love DotA more than anything else out there! I hope the community can consider re-evaluating the situations.
@God-Tony
Do you see yourself developing a new game just like DotA? Would you still continue developing 6v6 maps? Thanks and more power!
I can`t see DotA1s death any time soon...ppl still play it and they play the AI maps a lot! And if there are regular updates... it will be alive longer.
Dota still has an estimated 7-11 million players, I don't think it's anywhere near it's death.
Can u give me ur email address?
@Uncle_Zhuge:
No matter how much we speculate about DotA moving to HoN or Sc2, there is still the mystery that IceFrog left us regarding Valve and his future there. I think Wc3 DotA players will end up going in one of those three directions (and many already have -> HoN).
@PETER ZABLAN:
"Do you see yourself developing a new game just like DotA? Would you still continue developing 6v6 maps?"
I think I can still continue to release 6v6 maps, but as far as developing a new game you'll have to clarify. Do you mean from scratch or a Wc3 map? The answer is probably neither.
@Anonymous:
"Can u give me ur email address?"
You can find it in my blogger profile.
I wonder why IceFrog doesn't just add AI into his own map himself. There are a few AoS maps that do this, and with what seems like a lot of users who play AI alone, I don't see why people didn't go to him sooner. There is really no excuse for him other than lack of motivation.
you just dont want to make this, dont you?
Hon is nothing compared with DotA, it is just a copy.
And sc2 has nothing to do with dota, different engines.
I know that there are still plenty of DotA fans like yourself, and you don't like to hear that players are leaving Wc3 DotA for something else, but it's the truth.
It just doesn't make sense to put the time necessary into this project for a game that's on the way out.
You only see it from a big community but a small community like in my region doesn't know anything with HoN or SC2, they often play DotA. .
DotA players won't grow without AI. .
Hey, where i can see the open source script? I'm also a mapmaker maybe i can learn something. .
:. TE DOY GRACIAS MUCHAS .. TONY .... POR QUE YO CON MUCHO EL aprendi DOTA AI .... GRAAAAAAAACIAS ........
Well I wanted to comment here to make a stand with those who r still playing Dota, I’m a big fan myself and wanted to share with u my secret story ;)
I'm an IT eng in an industrial company that runs more than 500 PCs and more than 700 Users of different nations, and in attempt to clean all the PCs from unwanted games it caught my eye that more than 150 PC have DOTA!!! With USBs Locked and CD-ROMs locked as well, HOW it got there?! I suppose one the guys came with a Flash Memory claiming he have Important data he needs to put on his PC and somewhere in between a big zip file called My Emails :) We aren’t a Cyber Cafe Company nor am I a cruel person so I ended up adding access rights to my switches to open Dota Ports during lunch break, and creating a group policy to allow the exe's to run at lunch break as well. They are addicted... U should see them at night at Camp they all gather around with their laptops and I was able to spare them few old switches for this game... Somewhere in remote areas in a desert (Where we work) this game is a source of fun and challenge...
I don't see it dying as much as I see people getting curious to join and start having triple kills "Beginners Luck"... So have some faith…
All you addicted shits...
like BMP, GoD-Tony has a life too...
even i want the DOTA AI maps to continue....
but GT has given us good enough reasons to why he did not agree to do this....
one day all you addicts will find yourself in this position as well.....
No body can say how long the Dota will last in Warcraft 3 but if you keep doing this shit to these guys i am shure that dota will end very soon
if god-tony is willing to make ai map again i will be glad to help him if others are goig to make ai maps i also would glady help
I just like what the IT eng wrote :D (even though that probably means 150 illegal copies of wc3 :D, but blizzard earns more than enough money out of WoW anyway.) I would also guess DotA will last some long time. Right now 312000 people are playing War 3 RPG ( or anmely 95% DotA) over garena. ADdd to that the fact that this ain´t the prime time for garena as it seems and that DotA is also played over B-net, Lan, Hamachi and several other programms and hosting bots and vs the AI.
I actually think it might even outlive HoN.
HoN SUCKS , long live DotA
Dear God-Tony,I am sry i didn't use my blogger acc, because you waste my time. YOU KNOW U SUCK? If u can't develop the map, ICANN find someone else , U can just reply with a no u FAG. I am really dissapointed with your attidute, fuckin around with alot of excuses, u cocker
oh my god...was that really BMP?
That is not the real BuffMePlz, just ignore him.
I respect all the decision God-Tony makes.
The thing I want to say is that if you lose interest in Dota, this reason is enough for you to end the development of AI. But if you stop it only because the popularity of the game, I don't think it is a good reason.
I understand the manpower is a great problem to develop the AI, hope you can find a team if you are willing to continue the AI project.
If Dota AI really going to the end, I hope it will not end up like this (version 0.2141), may be end with a well developed version, for example v6.67 with all hero got AI, and then never update again.
By the way, I hope Dota AI can be continued.
Sorry for my suck English. >_<
Best Regards.
As bad as it sounds but in comparison between dota and hon..Dota is far better..i think people likes dota becoz of its easy and smooth game play...I playd HON LOL and some other games like dota...being open minded i can say dota is far better then them...These games concentrate on their graphics rather then their game play...And their graphics makes it harder to play smooth(see clearly)...i think dota deservs a far better ending then this.. Of course Dota is coming to an end..But Not like this..And GoD-tony with respect to your decision i belive you can come up with a better team or squad to make Ai maps...without Ai maps new players wont be encouraged to play dota..
Best Regards,
Buffmeplz was quitting my job of making ai maps. AS far as I am concerned, tht buffmeplz spoof guy who posted has a valid reason (or mayb his the real one , we never know)So,if sofas gonna die and u just completed the ai,maybe that your ai can keep war3 Dota alive, or mayb u can at least try ? I know u have your issues,biut please respect buffmeplz"s choice for u to continue our ai map making career
If u think that I I am another spoof guy, I can email u With MY Personal
email. And sry for all the the typos cos I ninja"d
GOOD NEWWWWSSS Guyz, u can lay rest now :) A successor for BMP has been located to continue the development of AI Maps and i believe he's going to do a great job, he's been approved by both BMP and Icefrog, Follow up here: http://www.dota-blog.com/2010/05/lets-welcome-harreke-new-dota-ai-map.html.
The Hope that didn't come from here, came from someone who really cares, let's wish him all the Luck...
People here are being too harsh on God-Tony. Don't simply dissed on him because he says no. His reason is as valid as BMP's reason to leave AI project. Are you guys now going to diss every single computer developer because they are not willing to help out DotA AI?
@Lazyfiend
Can you give me your email accunt or MSN,Im friend of New AI developer(Harreke,his network is not so good,so he can't post here) My name is aegis,playdota AI&Tools forum staff.Thx:)
I'm interested to see what Harekke comes up with. With his mention of it being open source, this would allow any member of the community to help out - including myself.
Let's see where this goes.
Upon further reading I've noticed that Harreke has decided to continue updating the old RGB code into new maps. http://goo.gl/MrZz
Good luck on what will inevitably be a solo project (code wise).
its hard to make a new code that everybody wants rgb code??? just wondering
Well this was a good initiative from Harreke, and i guess with the support of people who already have a deep knowledge of the code including u GoD-Tony will be much of help and ease of work and maybe with your minds together ;) release few more Maps that could amaze Dota Players, and if Dota was really to reach its end, at least be a great ending as some mentioned and maybe a Map that could last years to come for those still in Love with the Game. Just a Thought "Maybe a Map including lots of randomizations where people play the same version but everytime different Map View/Heroes/Abilities/Items/..." could make people interested in that same Map for quite some time. Well you know better. TC
Tony, just out of curiosity, what will your next project be then? I'm assuming you'll be staying in the mapmaking world, yes?
6.68B is alreadt out. Dear Tony, are you going to make it 6v6 soon?
hm... how long would it take to make a 6v6 for 6.68b?
I 'd like to see how to change a AI map to 6v6, or how to add AI into a dota map. Sure. 6.71b CIGP AI 6V6 and FUN
@xsin: A good place to learn how to edit maps: www.wc3c.net
@lord rt: I'm very late to respond, but I think that also gives you my answer to your question.
GoD thanks for sharing wc3c.net, I will create my own ai map just for fun ^^
when u want make DOTA MAP AI 6 vs 6
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